Call me crazy but after visiting about 8 pool builders over a period of a couple of months, I decided to see how much it would cost to do it myself. The pool I had in mind was estimated to cost approx $35 - $40K. After doing some additional research and finding out what it would take to get the permits, determining what subs to call, what order they come in, etc., etc, I found out that the cost to do it myself would be approx $25K after all the bids came in.

The savings of $10 - $15K is enough motivation for me to give it a shot. Its interesting that when I contacted the first few subcontractors, it was amazing how willing they were to help out a homeowner trying to do this. For the most part, they were all extremely helpful and were willing to spend extra time telling me what I need to do and how to plan things out. They also gave me the names of other subs in other pool trades who they knew were good and from that starting point, I was able to get bids for all the other work needed for this.

Anyone ever attempted anything like this before and if so, I'd like to hear about your experiences.

Am I totally nuts or is this a do-able thing?

We have been thinking about being our own general contractor as well. The issue I am stuck on, is warranty. Our gunite pool builders offer lifetime warrantys which transfer upon the sale of the house. They offer a lifetime warranty for things like plumping and piping problems beneath the pool. Any thoughts on the warranty issue? So far, we have gotten 2 quotes on our pool project. Well, I should say 1 1/2. The first Company, gave me a verbal quote, and said he would email me the final quote, but still hasn't done that, and it's been over a week. The second quote was done on the spot, however, we have a bit of a slope to work with and will need a retaining wall, so he couldn't give me a quote on the whole project without doing his own survey, "if we are really serious". I actually got the impression from both builders, they are really busy right now. Since we didn't expect to swim this year, we are going to back off for a couple of months. But in the meantime, the idea of being my own general contractor is becoming very interesting. My husband is a project manager for a commercial HVAC co, so he certainly has experience in the contruction industry, but of course NONE in the pool building. Does anyone have any web sites link which address this issue. First and foremost, where did you get the names of the subs who do pool work?

Sandy,

Its amazing how large and quick of a list you can get by starting with one sub. After talking with 8 pool builders, invariably they will mention a few of the subs they use. I just jotted the names of some of them down and called them later. From just a few names, I was able to get references for the rest of them. As you begin to hear of certain subs being mentioned over and over again by different people, you begin to see who has a great reputation in your area and who doesn't.

Yes, the warranty situation also concerns me. It is interesting though, the more people I talk to, the more people tell me that they would never use a pool builder again. A few of them told me that they actually spent more time with the subs and researching things than their general contractor did. Many also told me that the general usually only has a basic understanding of all the trades, but if you press them for more in-depth information of any particular trade, they will usually defer to the sub. If thats the case, then it seems to me that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to do a pool. Of all the people who built their own pool, none of them came back and said that they would go with a pool builder next time.

When I looked over a sample drawing from a Structural Engineer that I was considering, I actually understood all the stuff in the drawings. It basically was showing where extra steel reinforcement was necessary for the surcharges and other forces due to larger waterfeatures, being close to the house, etc., etc.

Anyways, I'm still kicking around the idea. Any other folks have any input?

P.S.
If I end up doing it, I'll probably start throwing up a "working
diary" with pictures up on my website as the construction progresses. I think it would be a cool experience.

LAST EDITED ON Jul-22-02 AT 10:15 AM (EDT)

Yep, I think you're nuts...

We had an 18x36 gunite pool built (3.5 to 6.5 ft depth, 24,500 gal capacity), and the actual itemized construction costs where right in the ballpark of what you quoted to do it yourself (not including the cost of any equipment). So, I'd say you'd be wise to have an experienced pool builder do the job -- IF FOR NO OTHER REASON than having someone else handle the job of general contractor. There are just too many subs involved to have the process completed smoothly and on-time if you have no experience in that area. And there's a big difference between knowing what needs to be done and having the expertise to make it happen.

Sorry, but I think you're asking for a nightmare... and at no significant savings to your bank account. Worse, if soemething turns out wrong, you have no warranty to turn to for help in correcting the problem. But hey, it's your money!

hehe - Ok, I can't say I haven't been warned. Actually I haven't made up my mind yet, but if you don't think $10-$15K is a nice savings for a $35 - $40K pool, you probably have more money than you know what to do with. We just moved into a new new house, and that savings could furnish the rest of our house.

No, I'm saying I suspect the "savings" is an illusion, and suggesting you should get more quotes --from experienced pool builders-- who can show you an itemized cost for just the part of the project that you are proposing to do yourself, so that you can be sure you're comparing appless to apples.

Good luck anyway, whatever you do. If you do it yourself, I know I'd be interested in hearing about your experience here.

-Jay

Jay,

Thanks for you thoughtful responses. Actually, of the 8 pool builders I talked with, about half of them are the biggest in Arizona. I'm not sure how many more you were thinking I should talk with, but they were all within 10% of each other. And actually, all provided me an itemized list of parts, add-ons, equipment, etc. so I was able to see exactly what I was getting.

I put them all into an Excel spreadsheet so I was able to see at a glance all the features I was getting with each one and a careful breakdown of each of the components of the pool.

I then did the same with calling the subs myself. I made sure I got bids from at least 3 subs in each trade, checking references and going to the AZ Registrar of Contractors (ROC) to see that they were licensed, bonded, insured, and had a clean record on the ROC website. Also, I only went with the ones who had repeated referrals from other people I spoke to. Again, all were within 10% of each other. From this data, I know that no one was over-charging or undercharging. Also, the $10K - $15K savings that I calculated was in line with what people told me I was going to save by being the GC myself. It seems like all the data I've collected "checks" out so far. Nothing has thrown me for a loop.

I estimate that it will take a couple of months to do the pool, which I think is being conservative. Lets just say that I spent full time (40hrs week), which I obviously wont, doing this for 2 full months. That would come out to about making the equivalent of a $90,000 salary. I would be "earning" this by doing what I actually think is fun and would be doing _anyways_ had I gone with a pool builder (as I like to be in full control of something this big). Being that I won't spend anywhere near this time working on the pool, the "salary" that I would "earn" would be way over six figures. That $15K is nothing to sneeze at.

I'm not dogging you - really. Thank you for your input. Its actually kind of humbling to see how many folks are against doing a pool on their own. I know I'm not some super genius, but it didn't seem like the GC's I talked to were either.

Still open to more input.

Thanks again Jay.

Ben

I'm late into this and haven't read the myriad of responses but:

The best reason for getting a GC is that the subs need to be concerned about their long-term relationships with the GC. If you are your own GC, then the subs don't have this long-term concern. If the sub ever has to choose between pissing you off and pissing some GC off, he's going to screw you every time. You are one-time business. The GC is a likely source of additional business every year.

Go for it!! I just did the same thing and completed my pool in 42 days. I saw someones reply in here stating you can build a pool in a week. Don't get your hopes up. You have to let gunite cure 14 days and you have to immediately fill with water after plastering so it will take longer than a week. What I found out is that most of these subcontractors work out of their house and rely on their answering machine. Fortunately I'm in the construction business (structural steel) so scheduling and working with contractors is easy for me but anyone can do it. You can talk to each sub for warranties. If you want more detailed info and some pics you can email me at .
Ed Jaworski

Well, I won't say you are crazy (I hardly know you), but I will go on the record and say that I am very happy that I went with an experienced pool builder. I'm convinced that I hired one of the best contractors around (and that I paid a little more for the privilege). One thing about the contractor that I used is that he didn't use subcontractors. He had crews to handle every task himself. The one exception was the pouring of the top deck. There was a concrete subcontractor who handled that task very well.

I work from home, and was able to watch the construction project very carefully from start to finish. (I'm sure they loved me!) My pool is a large freeform vinyl pool, which may be more complex than a gunnite pool due to the importance of getting the shape to match the drawing, but I don't know.

I can agree that building a pool is not rocked science. But having watched the entire process from start to finish, I saw very many tasks done that clearly required experience to be handled correctly. I can also say that this was a very involved job, which required a huge variety of skills.

There are two issues to remember when you try to be your own general contractor: First, many tasks depend on successful completion of the previous task. If that task is not done on time or properly, either the work cannot proceed, or costly rework will be required. Second, being a general contractor with only one job gives you the lowest priority among the subs. I have known many people who have general contracted their homes. I don't think I have known any who haven't regretted it (unless they were builders). The main problem is that the subs simply wouldn't show up when they promised.

My pool got built without a *single* incident where there was contention between me and my builder. We had many disagreements, but they were always resolved quickly, either by the contractor explaining his position clearly or giving in to me. As you can see, I was quite impressed by him.

Best of luck to you, whichever way you go!

Just my experience,

George

P.S. On the other hand, my contractor's brother is also a pool builder and he has some outstanding lawsuits against him.

My experience was much the same as George's when I had my gunite pool built. One thing that most attrated us to this particular builder was the fact that they had their own full-time crews, except for the electrical, and the concrete decking, in which case they had a good, long-standing relationship with the subs that did the work. Also, my builder took FULL charge as general contractor -- whereas a neighbor of mine, who went with another builder, ended up having to hire and manage his own outside subs when needed for some heavy-duty earth and rock removal. He deeply regretted his choice of builders as a result.

My IG 22X40 gunite pool was completed in June, so it's still very fresh in my memory. I started typing a book telling the nightmare that my builder and his subs put me through, but you don't need to hear my whining. Bottom line, even with all I know now and despite all my unhappiness with my builder, if I ever (God forbid) have another pool built, I will NOT do it myself.

Some background. I'm no dummy, I completed a computer science masters degree in 2001, and I watched every phase of the pool construction. It is not brain surgery. HOWEVER, I still strongly recommend that you NOT take this on yourself.

I submit that the reason that they are being so nice to you is that the sharks see an easy meal. I really believe that you are about to get fleeced. They are going to demand the money up front and what you get will be nothing like what you thought you were going to get. These people know every trick in the book and they are about to provide a lesson to the rookie.

Mike

{John, the email address associated with your account
no longer works, and I'm getting a flood of error messages
because you requested follow-ups on this thread. Please
update your email address. -Ben (the PoolSolutions' one!}

Ben
http://www.poolsolutions.com/ / http://www.poolforum.com/

=========================================================

John DiDonato posted the following, now removed:

My pool was just completed a few weeks ago, and I work from home which allowed me to watch every phase of construction. My builder only builds a handful of pools per year, but has been in business for over 20 years as a builder and has a pool supply/service store in town. He basically acted as a general contractor for much of the construction using subcontractors for 95% of the job.

Since he has been in business for so long, he has several trusted subcontractors that he counts on to handle each phase of construction. Without fail or issue, each major phase of construction (excavation, rebar, plumbing, gunite, plaster, electric) was handled by each respective subcontractor in a single day. Each sub knew exactly what they were doing and didn't need supervision. Each subcontractor came from within a 150 mile radius. The excavators were local, the rebar subs came from upstate New York, the plaster men came from southern New Jersey. They arrived early, worked fast, and performed well. You could tell that this was all they did every day for 75% of the year. It was really amazing to watch.

The most time consuming (and expensive) portion of my project was (and is) the landscape and hardscape around the pool. The pool itself is relatively fast work and I'll go out on a limb and say that if you had all your subs lined up with no rain or schedule delays, you could build a pool in a week. In reality, schedule delays occur and problems (rock, water, rain, Indian burial ground, etc.) will arise and will likely extend the job to several weeks, if not months.

After watching this process I have to admit the thought of being able to GC the job myself entered my mind. I then quickly came to the conclusion that in the amount of time I would spend I could make up the dollar difference in my day job. If you really feel the savings are worth the headache of screening, scheduling and monitoring the subs, and you have the time (you'll need alot of it) you will need to mitigate the risk of failure by one or more of your subs (or you). If you do your homework and get the right subcontractors who do nothing but build GOOD pools all year long, you will significantly lower your risk - but there will ALWAYS be the risk of failire, and that risk is expensive when it is yours.

Good luck,
John

Thanks for the input John.

Interesting that a pool could be built in a week. If I do end up doing this myself, I know that I don't have the kind of time to get it done in a week.

I'm guessing its going to take no longer than two months. But even as I write this, I'm thinking that I'm really not under any kind of schedule pressure to get it done even in two months. Being that I've got this dreaded thing called a day job, I may be scheduling a sub to come in every week. Theres quite a few subs/agencies I gotta deal with:

1) Structural Engineering
2) City Permit
3) Bluestake
4) Layout
5) Excavation
6) Plumbing
7) Gas (for the BBQ and Beehive fireplace)
8) Steel
9) City Inspection #1 (Pre-shotcrete inspection)
10) Shotcrete
11) Rockwork (Waterfall and accent boulders)
12) Deck
13) Tile
14) Fences
15) Cleanup
16) City Inspection #2
17) Interior (Pebble-Tec) / Acid
18) Startup

No problem right? =)

I've got multiple bids on just about every sub and I've taken to time to find out what the pre and post expectations are from sub to sub to insure a smooth transition from each.

I don't know if anyone is interested in that kind of information, but I'll probably throw all this info up on the website once I get it going.

Its actually pretty cool to talk to these guys. Its amazing how much people are willing to tell you about their trade and how their part of the world works. Actually its not. People love to tell others the nitty gritty details of what they do for a living. In most instances it bores people to tears - until you want to build a pool on your own ;)

Ben

BTW,

Heres a picture of the pool I want to do:

I did it up in Visio 2000, which BTW, has some great pool designing tools.

Ben

LAST EDITED ON Jul-24-02 AT 08:23 AM (EDT)

Wow! That's an awesome (not to mention "ambitious") design! What was it you were saying about having too much money to burn?

I would, however, point out that your pool equipment is WAY too far ($$$$) away from the pool. You might want to consider re-positioning it either on the "electric" side of the house, or at the back of the property behind the pool. I'm guessing you had it near the gas line because you're considering a gas heater. If you live south of the Mason-Dixon line, however, I'd highly recommend a heat pump as a more cost-effective solution.

Another caveat: Someone else mentioned rain delays... Do you have a day job? Do you realize you have to be on-site when the subs show up? Do you also realize that if it rains you cannot dig? I watched my contractor deal with two solid months of rain delays , trying to keep crews and subs busy between at least three simultaneous jobs. It was frustrating enough for me just waiting and watching... but at least I didn't have to physically be there on-site every day to monitor the subs, or decide whether to send them home!

Good luck anyway, Ben... but I still think you're nuts!

-Jay

I run an elctrical contracting company in Virginia. We added gas and plumbing to our services this past year. 80% of our work is wiring and gas piping (for gas heaters) on in-ground pools. I came across this site today looking for some information on pool chemicals. I looked at the plans above and want to say that this layout displays the best option for electrical and gas for this pool.The electrical lines in pvc can run through the crawl space under house and not have a lot of trenching or digging to the pump. The heater is located fairly close to the gas meter, it seems. This is the most cost efficient way since your gas piping will be less complicated. Gas piping can get expensive quick, the farther you get from the meter. You might want to consider any future site lighting, speakers or convenience outlets before finishing your plans. It is much easier and less expensive to have your electrician install pvc now for the electrical lines you may want in the future before your concrete goes down. The wires can be pulled through later. If you are considering putting any of these features in the concrete area, you will want to make provisions for those coming up in the concrete also or go ahead and install those features now. I agree that your plan need some adjustments, but will only address the electrical and gas features for which I'm qualified. The best idea is to take your plans to the builing inspectors office for review and they can tell you what needs to be brought up to code and talk with your subs for their input on their specialties. I wish you luck.

Stacy,

Thanks for the great input! Most all the gas subs recommended that I locate the equipment where I have it because of exactly what you said. Its much more expensive to run gas lines than it is to run electrical.

I actually have another drawing that shows where I am planning for extra outdoor outlets, overhead flood lights, Low-voltage lighting, PVC for the landscape drip system, a misting/fogging system, etc. The drawing above is busy enough as it is without all the electrical, gas, and landscaping runs. Speakers is one thing I haven't considered. Thanks for the tip. I'll have to tweak it a bit more

It has taken some thought to layout what I want to be my dream backyard, but it has been worth every minute.

Ben

Ben

Thanks for the input Jay -

Both the gas and electrical subs recommended that I locate the equipment where I have it because gas is much more expensive to run than electrical.

One thing nice about the group I am transitioning into is that they seem to be flexible about working from home. This will definitely help out as the subs come through. Obviously, I won't be able to spend the whole day with them, but I can at least be there when they arrive and be there if they have any questions.

I think I may be certifiably nuts too! Maybe I'll be coming back here in a few months and getting a generous helping of crow pie, but right now, I'm leaning more towards doing it than not doing it.

Hi Ben,

That looks very nice!

One comment on your drawing: I'm not seeing the pool barrier (fence) on your drawing. (If I missed it, sorry.) My local government just started enforcing the barrier laws this year due to a drowning in the area. They would not accept my application for permit until the drawing showed the location and details of the fence so that they could verify that it met their building codes. In the case where the barrier allowed access to the pool from the house, they required details on the alarm system that would be placed on each of the doors and windows of the house which lead to the pool area.

Anyway, just a little input that might save you some trouble. Of course, YMMV based on your local government.

Good luck with your project!

George

It looks lovely, but I see several potential problems. I am in the process of getting my 40'x16 AG Fanta-Sea pool approved so I am NOW familiar with what is required in my town. The pool structure and placement have been accepted (after they requested a few changes--that's why I'm not longer going after a 40'x20' pool. So here's what would be a problem in MY town:
1) Your pool takes up more than 10% of your backyard--I had to clearly show that my pool was less than 10%.
2) The distance from the house is CLEARLY less than 10'--I see a 5'6" walk marked off--and the pool is actually closer to the house than that.
3) You are easily less than 20' from the side and back property lines. You don't appear to be even 10' from the back line. I had 43' and had to increase it to 50' because my plan attaches my pool to my deck, making it part of the house, which must be 50' from the back line...
4) I don't see any fencing indicated. Even if you fence off the yard, these days towns are strictly enforcing access so that a patio door that enters into the pool area is considered a violation--Check with BOCA codes. I had to put a fence between the deck and the pool deck to get approval.

We did a kitchen 3 years ago, WITH a contractor and STILL went nuts. A 6 week job took 6 months, and I ended up finishing it myself. If you must rely on the subs to do work, and you don't know them, you may count on them showing up sporadically as they balance you with other jobs. Do not, repeat NOT give them much money upfront. If they want more than a third, find somebody else. What if they don't want to do the work? Or only do half of it? How do you get your money back? Heavily load ALL contracts to back end payments--the bigger the better--it's the incentive to get them to finish.

So why am I doing GC myself on my pool? Well, it's AG, the sprinklers will be moved by my regular sprinkler company, all the grading will be done by my landscaping/mowing service, the installation crew will come in from out-of-town so they don't have any other jobs, and I used to be a frame carpenter so I'm planning on doing all the fencing myself. Even so, as much of an advance planner and contingency planner as I am, I anticipate that the unanticipated will happen--I just don't know what it will be! (But, BOY do I wish I did!). Besides, I'm not handling it myself to save money (though I don't mind that one bit) but, rather, to retain control and get the pool I want. At that point, my beloved 15'x36" Intex Easyset will be retired--anyone wanna buy a 3 year old Easyset in September?
CarlD

Carl,

Thanks for the great response!

The city of Chandler has different regulations. I guess each city decides what kinds of margins of safety they want to biuld into their regulations when they approve pool plans.

There is not a 10% rule or a 10ft rule in my city. The regulation is that the edge of the pool shall not encroach within 5 ft of the property line or within 5 ft of the edge of any part of the house. Also, there is no fencing rule per se, only that any entry way into the pool area must be secured with a spring-loaded self-latching door. The latches must also be installed at some minimum height so as to be out of reach of kids. It seems like my city is kinda liberal. I don't know if thats a good thing...

I spoke to the Structural Engineer who did up my engineering plans about these conditions and he said that due to the surcharging and extra sheer forces due to the weight of the home (bottom right edge of pool near the house line), it would be good (but not required) to do 4x4 steel reinforcement rather than the standard spacing they use - in that area of the pool. I'll do it anyways just to be sure.

I asked the Steel sub how much that would be extra, and he said almost nothing (about $50 bucks).

Thanks for the insight into dealing with subs. I've had some run-ins myself with the subs who were doing my flooring when we first moved in. In the middle of the job, they decided that they were going to take another job and headed up to Flagstaff for two days without even telling me. I was furious. Worse, we had a deadline for getting out of the apartment, so we were on a tight schedule for getting the flooring done. I know its going to be a pain working with some of them. However, I'm coming into this thing already expecting that.

Ben

George,

Thanks for the input -

My city does not have regulations for pool fencing per se, but they do have requirements that say any entry way into the pool area needs to have spring loaded, self-latching doors. I'm going to have to retrofit both patio doors with new latches that are quite a bit higher on the glass door than where they are now (out of reach of the little ones). Around my property line is a masonry wall that is about 7 ft high.

I actually took a drawing similar to the one above (had some minor adjustments) to the city and they actually have approved the plans already.

Ben

Oops - I guess I wasn't totally accurate. The city of Chandler *does* have a fencing requirement, but since there is a 6ft masonry (block) wall surrounding the perimeter of my entire lot, that is sufficient to meet the fencing requirement.

When you originally talked about fencing, I was thinking about the wrought iron fencing that lots of folks put around the pool right off the water's edge. Theres not a need for that due to the masonry wall that I have.

Ben

I just finished meeting with Ray from AZ Gas Piping just a few minutes ago. What a great guy. He just started his business about a year ago but has been working with gas for about two. He's done about 45 jobs and hasn't had one complaint. His record at the ROC is clean. He doesn't take any payment until his work is completed done and inspected by the city. He warranties his work for a year, but has never had to come out to fix anything he's done. We sat around and talked like old friends.

Just wanted to add a note as I continue to talk with subs. Some of these subs are the greatest people to work with. Like I was saying in an earlier post, these people love to tell you what they do, how they do it, what they look for from the previous sub, what they need to leave for the next sub. For a homeowner who doesn't have the expertise, I love that. Just from half hour meetings like that you gain so much more insight into every aspect of the pool building process.

I said from the beginning that I'm really doing it to save money. The other reason is that I have full control over the building process. That way I can't get mad at the GC who screws up =) Learning the intricacies of building a pool probably doesn't appeal to most people, but I find it fascinating. Thats just me. In the process of doing this project, I'm becoming so much more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of a pool than I ever would have, going through a pool builder and thats a very satisfying feeling. That alone may make this whole effort worth it.

Ben

LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-02 AT 01:25 AM (EDT)

Go for it! Building a pool is easy! (As long as you don't do any of the digging)

I had a pool built in my last home. I hired a GC who did a good job. As all of the subs arrived to do their part, I would talk to them, and watch. I learned everything I could. All of the subs were great people, but some showed up late. There would be two week gaps in construction, no big deal, as long as they do eventually show up. Otherwise, you find another sub. They told me that they deal with alot of people who act as the GC, and say that it is the best way to build a pool. You get the same pool for less money.

I have now moved into another home, and am going to build a pool. I am going to act as the GC. Building a pool is not hard. You dig a hole, lay rebar do your plumbing and electrical, shot gunite, tile and plaster.

Of cours there will be delays, and of course you have to be on top of the building process, but if you know that ahead of time then what is the problem?

Alot of people don't like the "head achs" of dealing with subs, but the money you save can buy alot of asperin.

I will never hire a GC to build a pool again, all they do is make phone calls and watch! oh, and they take your money!

Mike,

Thats what _I'm_ talking about. In the last few days, I've become more and more convinced that its the best thing to do.

I think people don't realize how straightforward it is to build their own pool. By doing it myself rather than going with a pool builder, I'm effectively getting a free spa, free gas BBQ/Beehive fireplace, and a $2000 misting/fogging system (adds to the tropical feel of a lagoon-style pool).

I think making a few phone calls is worth all that. The reason most people don't do it is that they somehow think that they need to know every detail of how to build a pool before they can even think about undertaking such a huge project. Thats what I used to think too. My biggest worry was the warranties, but after talking to more subs recently, I've found out that they warranty their work just like everyone else. In fact, if you need re-work done, I believe the responsiveness will be better since you can now cut out the middle man (ie. pool builder).

Other folks think that subs love to take advantage of homeowners. I'm not sure that they will though. As I was getting bids, I told the subs upfront that if I end up building a pool and GC'ing it myself, I will be putting the progress of it on the Internet. I said that if you do a good job, you'll probably get a few more jobs out of it from the people in AZ who happen to be following its progress. If you don't do a good job, people will come to know that too. Either way, you will be immortalized. Its up to you to decide what that will look like. So far, they all seemed pretty pumped up about it.

When the website that I'm doing to document the building progress is at a good stopping point, I'll post the URL. Hopefully, it'll show how straightforward building a pool will be.

Ben

Hi Ben (Choi)

This is an interesting thread, and contains information that will likely prove valuable to many. But, I feel forced to include some cautions.

Enthusiasm for a new project is great, but most jobs, even by professionals, encounter problems. Those reading this thread need to remember that you are STARTING a new pool, but haven't FINISHED it yet. You write, "I think people don't realize how straightforward it is to build their own pool". But, to be a bit blunt, you don't realize that yet, either.

I hope it goes as well as you expect.

And, it's quite true that many people are moderately successful building their own pools. But folks tend to post about OTHER PEOPLE'S FAILURES and THEIR OWN SUCCESSES, and not the other way round. I get a fair number of pretty desperate emails from folks that have tackled something that turned out to be over their heads. They often don't post, though, because of embarrassment.

Pool building is not rocket science. But, it's not a trivial problem, either, not least because the techniques required to build a successful pool in a particular area are NOT documented in writing in any particular place.

And, while I certainly don't have anything approaching a reliable study of failure rates on owner-built pools, my impression is that the failures amount to a pretty significant percentage of those pools. Ben, it's not my intention to discourage you. But I do want to encourage others, reading this thread, to consider carefully whether they have the time, resources, perseverance, and skills required to succeed with an owner-built pool. If they do, that's fine with me. But a mis-built pool tends to be enormously expensive and difficult to fix.

Again, you have my best wishes.

Ben
http://www.poolsolutions.com/ / http://www.poolforum.com/

Ben,

Thanks for your words of wisdom. I was hoping you would chime in sooner or later.

I'm definitely going into this with enthusiasm, but at the same time, I don't believe I'm going into this with any grandiose illusions. But neither do I believe I need them. I don't pretend to know the intricate details of how to build a pool. But then again, I don't need to.

There seems to be recurring theme here from the last few posters that I somehow I need to know all the details about each trade in order to embark on being a GC. Let me just give a perspective from my end of the world and maybe you can comment on the validity of this.

I¡¦m a Software Engineer at a large computer firm in Chandler Arizona. I've never built a pool in my life, but if there¡¦s anything I've learned as an engineer during my 13 years in the industry its this: A good engineer doesn¡¦t need to know all the details of how to accomplish a task. They either need to know where to get the information or find the people who do. OR better yet, get people who do - to do it for you. And thats exactly what a GC does. A GC doesn't do the work. A GC coordinates the work. A GC schedules the work. A GC supervises the work. But they don't do the detailed work that requires the skill and knowledge. That's what the subs are for. They are the ones who need to know what they are doing. After all thats what they do for a living.

As a GC, your main job is the find a sub that is reputable in their trade and has lots of experience in what they do. You make sure you find a sub that is licensed, bonded and insured with the Registrar of Contractors. You get references and referrals from others who are thrilled to death about their work. You make sure that their license is current and that they have a clean record at the ROC. In AZ, the ROC has a website (http://www.rc.state.az.us/) with a huge database that you can query. My guess is that most states have the same.

As a GC, here is the thing you do need to know: What is the entrance criteria for each sub (ie. what does each sub require from the previous sub in order to do their work when its their turn)? Here the secret to find out what that is: ASK. Again, you will be amazed at what they will tell you and how much they want to tell you. You don't have to just take one subs word for it. Ask a couple. You'll have to do that anyways. When you get bids for a particular trade, you¡¦ll want to get bids from at least 2 or 3 just to make sure they are competitively priced. At that time, ask them.

In addition to this, you will also have some people on your side that will help you. The City Inspector is your friend. They will insure that all the work that the subs do are up to city code and will not pass any work that doesn't meet spec. To me, thats a HUGE advantage.

Ben, you are correct when you say that I haven't finished the pool yet. At the same time, I know a bunch of people who were their own GCs and have finished their pools. My first question to them is "If you could do it again, would you?" So far, they have all resoundingly said YES. Yeah, the calls and the chasing after the subs were a headache. But when they saved tens of thousands of dollars, those headaches didn't seem so bad afterwards.

I don't know. Maybe I just live in a region where all the homeowner GCs that I know happened to be lucky. Maybe I don't get to hear all the homeowners who have failed. Heres the thing. I purposely posted on here thinking I would get a good representative snapshot of people who have GC'ed and either loved it or hated it. So far, the people who have told me don't do it have not GC'ed themselves. They are homeowners who used pool builders and were so upset with the result that they logically conclude that GC'ing MUST be 10x worse. I submit thats a faulty conclusion. They are usually unhappy because it wasn't done the way that they wanted it. If you GC'ed it yourself, YOU ARE IN FULL CONTROL to do it the way you want it and when you want it.

Ben, I'm also not sure I buy that people who have GC'ed and failed are embarrassed to admit it. This is effectively an anonymous forum where you can post as Donald Duck. Why would anyone be embarrassed to post? Who's going to know?

I'm still waiting for people to chime in who have GC'ed a pool themselves who absolutely hated what was produced and want to tell me to run in the other direction as fast as I can. I'd like to know concrete reasons why it failed and if it was due to lack of intricate knowledge about the pool building process.

Any takers?

Ben (not PoolDoc)

PoolDoc,

To be fair to you, I have slowly discovered that being a GC doese indeed require a certain type of individual.

I think that you SHOULDNT attempt to GC a pool yourself if any of these are true of you:

1) You don't have the time to to spend calling subs, collecting bids, asking a lot of questions, being home when they come, and in general chasing them around.

2) If you don't have the mental fortitude to deal with subs not showing up when they were supposed to and in general their flakiness. Going into a pool project without that expectation will cause incredible grief, frustration, and anger, and your mental health would be better served by going with an experienced pool builder.

3) You don't have the desire or motivation to learn a lot about the different subs/trades that you will be dealing with when you build your pool. There could be anywhere from 15-20 different trade subcontractors involved. You won't be expected to know the intimate details of what they do or how they do it, but you will need to know what one sub requires of the next in order to insure a smooth transition from one phase to the next.

Ben (not PoolDoc)

Go for it!! I just did the same thing and completed my pool in 42 days. I saw someones reply in here stating you can build a pool in a week. Don't get your hopes up. You have to let gunite cure 14 days and you have to immediately fill with water after plastering so it will take longer than a week. What I found out is that most of these subcontractors work out of their house and rely on their answering machine. Fortunately I'm in the construction business (structural steel) so scheduling and working with contractors is easy for me but anyone can do it. You can talk to each sub for warranties. If you want more detailed info and some pics you can email me at .
Ed Jaworski

Ben (not pooldoc), I've been watching this thread grow and quite frankly, I think you are asking for a nightmare. It will take far longer than you expect, you will have troubles meeting building codes, and you will ask why you ever started. However, if you check the web, you will find there ARE do-it-yourself kits for building your own inground pool--but they are bolt-together steel-framed vinyl-lined. I suggest you check them out and consider doing that rather than trying to lay re-bar and shoot gunite, all on your first go-around. Even so, expect headaches. Anyone who has ever spent time in the building trades, either for a full career (like the Pool Doc) or a few years, like myself, should be aware of what is difficult and what is easy. Even so, when not acting as my own GC, I have found supervising projects to be frustrating, whether it be the installation of a chainlink fence, a new skylight, or our kitchen (where I finally fired the contractor and finished it myself). I am taking it on again with an AG pool, attached to my deck, and will probably get all the headaches I'm warning you about, but I am having an out-of-town crew do the installation--so they don't have any "distractions". It's all the prep work. I am struggling with my town's inspectors with the plans just to meet code. The construction plans needed to be re-done, then the electrical portion had a problem. Turns out the electrical inspector was only given the revised plans, not the originals, which had most of the requirements met. The revised only addressed the construction issues. LUCKILY, my town has honest, safety-minded inspectors, who are on the homeowners' side and NOT out to bust chops or get palms greased. As long as they don't think you are trying to pull one over on them, they are very helpful about how to meet the requirements, and try to avoid playing "Barney Bureaucrat". But they are strict and the electrical guy is known as a stickler. Almost all the local contractors hate him with a passion, and I know why, but that's why I think he's terrific--when he catches them trying to pull a fast one he puts them through purgatory--and they never learn! Good luck with it!
CarlD

Ben,
I've enjoyed following this thread since it is directy related to what I do. As I said, my company performs wiring and gas fitting for in-ground pools and it relates to 80% of our work. Please remember that these pool contractors are in business and have overhead costs to cover, they do not take home all of the money most people consider proffit. The normal business expenses like phone lines, required licensing, accounting personel and office supplies, to name a few, will be avoided by someone who acts as their own general contractor. Some pool contractors have their own employees that perform a percentage of the work. There are workers comp and liability insurance requirements to be in this trade and they have to insure their company vehicles with auto insurance. The pool contractor or their employees maintain scheduling, meet with customers, arrange for deliveries of materials or bring equipment to the job site from the supply houses and take care of any problems that arise along with overseeing the job itself. They have the knowledge to know what mistakes to look for and how to avoid problems. I've worked with several homeowners that have acted as their own GC and even some that used the kits CarlD mentioned to build their own vinyl pools. It's not rocket science, but it is a lot of work. There are some things that you should consider and resolve before you start. Who is buying the equipment, from where and how will it get to the job? You would assume that the electrician would provide the pool lights, but that isn't so around here. The lights are bought by the pool contractor to go with that pool and on the job when we arrive. The same goes for the pool pump and heater. The person who handles the buying also takes care of returns. We've had 3 pool lights and 5 pumps that were not working correctly right out of the box this year alone. You don't have insurance to cover the laborers working on your property but can be held responsible for injuries if they aren't covered by someone. Sub-contractors with more than 3 employees are required to have workers comp insurance here in Virginia. Request a certificate of liability insurance from each of your subs to be sure they have adequate insurance. Request business licenses, especially if one of your subs "lets" you go get your own permit. We are used to providing these to each of the contractors we work for, so if they are hesitant, think of looking for another sub. Be sure to ask what isn't covered. Our contract states that we are not responsible for any damage that may occur during trenching. We have Ms Utility mark all underground public utilities before breaking ground and ask the homeowner about any private utilities. This is standard since we can't know what is under ground if it isn't marked. Sometimes the homeowner forgets that the sprinkler system is right where we are going to dig and we hit it. We are not responsible for the cost of fixing that line and either the homeowner or pool contractor absorbs the cost. Again, I recommend speaking to your local building inspectors about the subs you are hiring. If they have done this type of work in your area much, the inspectors have probably seen enough of their work to tell you if they are as good as they say. Ask for references from their other customers. I recommend asking for 3 recent customers and 2 from 6 months ago. Giving them a time period when the work was done will help avoid getting "selected" customers. If you act as your own GC, you will have to rely heavily on these subs, so make sure they are reliable. There are some very good subs out there, but there are good salesmen that only know how to outbid the next guy too. Keep yourself informed and good luck.
Stacy

Stacy,

Whew!! That was a meaty fact-filled post! Don't be giving away all your secrets =)

When I go with a pool sub, I make sure they are licensed, bonded and insured. The "insured" part is what I assume will cover things like accidents that happen to their employees, etc., etc. Thanks for the great advice about asking about this though. I'll keep that in mind.

When I get a bid/quote from a sub, I always ask for a detailed line-itemization of everything I'm getting. I assume if $300 is listed for a pump by the plumber, that he will get the pump to my house. I'll make sure I ask that.

And actually, as far as that goes, I'm requesting from some subs that I purchase some of the equipment myself. For example, I plan on using an Aqua-Link RS-8 remote control that requires Jandy Never-Lube Valves (plumber) and Jandy Actuators JVA-2440 (electrical). I can actually get the JVAs cheaper new on Ebay ($90) than buying them retail ($285). I actually love doing stuff like that. I've told the electricians that I plan to have some of that stuff so that they can leave it out of the quote.

The gas sub made sure he mentioned that he wasn't responsible for broken landscape lines, etc, etc. The backyard is currently bare, so I don't think it will be a problem. Bluestake will come out before Excavation to mark all the utility lines in the ground. The gas sub graciously offerred to call them for me since he needs that to be done anyways. That was nice of him.

Ben

Carl,

I'm fully expecting a nightmare. Thats why I don't think it will be one. I hope that makes sense.

Actually, I won't have any troubles meeting building codes - the subs will. And the City Inspector will make sure of it like you say. The inspector will be the subs worst nightmare - and I'm glad it will be that way - for my sake.

I think using a Do-It-Yourself kit is the WORST option - for me. Certainly worse than GC'ing a pool. To use a DIY kit, I would then REALLY have to know something about building a pool, which I don't. So that is not even an option for me.

I think going with an out-of-town crew is dangerous. Depending on where they are from, there could be differences in the way they do things from their own locale that meet code in their city that won't in yours. They might be so used to doing things that they could do it in their sleep. The problem is that now they are in a different city and all the codes may be different. As bad as it may be to deal with subs in your city, I think that is the most prudent thing to do since they have the experience of meeting code in your city.

Just my $0.02,
Ben

Just a reminder, to those who'll be reading this lengthy and informative post in the future: the "Ben" who is the primary poster here, is NOT me (Ben Powell) but is a fairly new forum user named Ben Choi.

Ben
http://www.poolsolutions.com/ / http://www.poolforum.com/

Ben (Choi):
I fully appreciate your concerns about out-of-town contractors. I was too sparse in my explanation. I am planning on installing a Fanta-Sea pool. I actually know how to do everything on it up to installing the liner, and I suppose I could figure that out. However, Fanta-Sea has installation crews that work with them regularly and can get the pool up in a couple of days, whereas it would take me weeks. This is what they do: Install Fanta-Sea pools for Island Pools. I would also require getting several guys to help me since there are 40+feet steel girders--and I'd have to pay them anyway. The crew is ONLY erecting the pool. It is incumbent on me to have the site ready, the electric run, the permits in place, etc. They also unload the truck (!), which is very big plus for me.

As for the pool kits that involve steel walls and vinyl liners--some look tougher than others, but they all look a LOT simpler to erect than gunite. But that is just IMHO. However, I wish you the best of luck, hope you end up with a WONDERFUL pool in a timely fashion that saved you mega-bucks.
CarlD

LAST EDITED ON Aug-02-02 AT 12:54 PM (EDT)

Another thing to remember is that the subcontractors are loyal to their regular pool builders and you will just be "pick-up" work for them. After you get a quote from them ask them if there is a discount for paying cash, the great motivator. But tell them you still want an invoice, a release and a guarantee (if applicable). You must be diligent with scheduling and planning. One forgotten phone call for inspection is an excuse for a sub to put you off for a while. Once your schedule gets broken up, and it will, it becomes a free for all to get everyone back on track. I work on large scale construction projects and dealing with some of these pool subs makes you wonder how they stay in business. Supply and demand I guess. In my case most of them won't sign a contract in advance so you have no leverage on them. But I can't complain, from dig to swim was 42 days. My plumber called me a pain in the ass and I said "I'm just persistent", he agreed and said not even the pool companies are getting pools done this fast at this time of year. There are a lot of things that will be your responsibility. For starters, drawing the plans, engineers approval, city approval and permits, do you have overhead wires?, if so, do you have to raise your drop service into your house?, are you far away enough from the property lines?, is your equipment far away enough from the house and property line?, is the pool far away enough from the house?, are there slopes adjacent to the pool?, in my case in So. Cal., if your pool is within 10' of a slope extra rebar and gunite is required, how high is your water table?, do you have expansive soil?, do you need a manifest for dumping your excavated dirt?, you strip the forms after gunite, there's always someone's mess to clean up, do you need fencing per code requirements?, tell the excavator to leave part of his ramp uncovered so every one will have a place to dump there junk, MAKE SURE YOUR DECK CONTRACTOR IS EXPERIENCED WITH SWIMMING POOLS!!!

1. Plans permits
Call Dig Alert!!
2. Excavation
3. Plumber sets drains and skimmer box (es), Plumber will love you let him in before rebar.
4. Rebar
5. Rough-in plumbing and electrical
6. Pre-gunite Inspection (Do not miss this one)
7. Gunite (So. Cal. requires 14 day cure, keep gunite wet)
8. Complete plumbing
9. Tile & coping
10. Pre plaster inspection
11. Pour deck, let decker back fill plumbing so he knows where piping is and doesn't drive a stake through pipe.
12. Plaster, fill with water immediately
13. Final inspection

Hope this helps
Ed

Ed,

Wow - great information!

The only thing I hadn't considered is the Water Table - what the heck is a water table? I don't recall my Structural Engineer talking to me about that.

Ben Choi

Never mind - I happened to wander through another thread that was discussing water tables.

Just another observation crossed my mind as I was thinking about water tables. I've talked to a LOT of subs and have asked a LOT of questions. None of them have mentioned anything about water tables. I'm guessing that they haven't not because they don't know what it is, but rather because its not an issue in my city.

Usually the first question they ask me is "What city do you live in?" I'm assuming they do so because each city has its own idiosyncrasies and challenges and they want to mentally size up what kind of effort and cost is involved with doing the job. They don't need to tell me all the details about what they do, but I'm guessing that if water tables were an issue, they would have mentioned it. Why do I think so? Because they mentioned the expansive soil in my city and what they were planning to do to compensate for THAT. Now I know about expansive soil and what it can do to decks and pool shells. I'm guessing that they mentioned it because its an issue they have to deal with that adds extra cost to the job and therefore need to justify it to me. I'm also guessing that they haven't mentioned water tables because its not an issue.

And even if one sub forgets to mention something, you have the safety net of getting bids from multiple subs in the same trade.
I find it highly doubtful that you can get bids from multiple reputable subs who have many years of experience working in your city and have something catch them collectively by surprise.

This goes back to my point about relying on the subs to deal with the intimate details of the work and you (the GC) having to know only enough to bridge the gaps between the subs.

Ben Choi

Actually, I expect EVERYONE who does any kind of digging or IG poolwork knows EXACTLY what a water table is. It's how high the ground water naturally rises in your back yard. If your water table is 4' and you are going down 8' you will have to pump and keep pumping water out while your pool is built until you have at least 4' of water in the pool itself. Otherwise, your pool turns into a big boat that floats...ruining your project...The water table changes depending on the weather and the season. It's also part of the reservoir system that supplies city drinking water. A reservoir actually only is about 1/3 of the true reserve's supply. The ground water flows into the reservoir pool, so it's true size is 3x larger than it appears. We learned all this with our nasty spring drought here in NJ.
But, Ben, if you don't consider your water table, you may have catastrophic trouble. My understanding (Ben P, back me up here) is that if you plan for it correctly, and it is expected, it's not a serious problem.

CarlD

Thats good information Carl - I guess the point I was trying to make was I'm sure all of the subs and eight pool builders I've talked to know about water tables. The fact that they didn't mention anything about them to me doesn't mean that they don't know what they are - but rather its not an issue.

The reason why I believe this is so is because just about all the subs and all 8 builders have mentioned the problem with expansive soil at some point in their pitch. They have shown me full page articles from local papers about the problem. And I use this as an example. Why did they do so? Because its an issue in my area. Why have they not mentioned water tables? Probably because its not an issue. I'll find it hard to believe that after building tens of thousands of pools in my area (BTW, I hear that Arizona has the most pools per capita than any city in the US, but I can't confirm that), that suddenly my house/lot would have an issue with the water table.

If there are issues with water tables in my area, I'm guessing it would affect far more homes than just mine and that subs and pool builders alike would somewhere along the line make mention of it to the homeowner. Why? Because they would have to justify the extra cost of doing special elevation (or whatever they have to do) to work around the problem.

BTW, all the subs I'm planning to use work for the biggest pool builders in the valley. The same issues the subs face working for the pool builders are the same issues face working for homeowners. If they've had issues with water tables in the past (whether working for pool builders or home owners), I'm sure that it will be mentioned.

Thats why I've been saying all along that if its a detail that doesn't concern me (its not an issue for my area), then I don't really care if the sub mentions it or not. It would be *good* just for my knowledge, but I really don't need to know.

BenC

Do houses in your area have basements? If no one in your area has a basement, one likely reason is that there is a high water table. Generally, the kinds of things that make basements impractical are the same things that make pools more difficult to build.

Even if basements are common, rocks still could be a problem in your area. If rocks are an issue, be prepared to pay money for rock removal. Either by blasting or with a jack hammer.

Where I live in Virginia, there is no issue with water table, but rocks are everywhere. My builder was amazed that he didn't have to blast on a pool this size. He has had to blast at 8 of the 10 pools he has started this year.

Good luck,

George

George,

Yes, there are basement homes in our area. I myself don't have one though.

Our area used to be farm land so while the soil is expansive, none of the subs (or the pool builders) that I've talked with said that rocks are a problem. They used to be a problem in the city we used to live and they had to bring in special equipment to do the dig ($$$).

BenC

Ok, now I've done it. I've actually gotten started. I had bluestake come out last week to mark up the ground for the utilities. The layout guy came by today and he did a fantastic job! Excavators are up next probably in the next few days.

I started to throw all this info up on a website:

http://bschoi.rois.net//

I'm planning to update it as I go along and post a simple message in here when the next phase is completed.

The nice thing in AZ right now is that its getting towards the tail end of the pool building season and the subs are starting to get less and less jobs. This really helps me out in terms of scheduling the subs in. I may actually finish this thing in half the time I was expecting to.

Thanks again for all the input you guys have provided in this forum. And thank you PoolDoc for providing the forum!

BenC

Hi Ben,

Nice website! I read through it and I must say that it will be a real service to those following in your footsteps.

That said, I will say that I think it would be virtually impossible to do what you are doing in this part of Virginia. The reason is that there simply isn't a huge industry of pool subcontractors around here. I know quite a few people with pools, but I don't know any who GC'ed their own work. Without subs to GC, I don't think it could be done (or certainly it could not be done well). Virtually *all* inground pools in this area are built by pool builders. They may sub out one or two of the tasks, but they do the rest themselves. (Anyone, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this point.)

Also, I would like to offer my one regret on my pool design that I would have done differently. Someone else can point out if it is an unworkable idea. Basically, I wish I had put plumbing in my concrete deck like is found in radiant floor heating systems. That would have allowed me to circulate pool water through the deck, which would both heat the water and cool the deck. The deck has about the same surface area as the pool, which is often the area recommended for solar heating equipment. The only question is whether such a feature could be designed to survive the winter. Radiant floor heating systems do not have to deal with freezing. For your application in AZ, adding more heat to the water on the hottest days may not be desireable, but in Virginia I think it would be a good tradeoff. Thoughts, anyone?

As always, I wish you the best of luck on your project!

Regards,

George

George,

As I reading your post, it became more apparent to me that the variances in pool building across geographical regions is enormous.

I need to put a few more disclaimers on my intro page about that. Thanks for pointing that out. What I really wanted to do is to document what I did for my situation, my state, my city, my house. If nothing else, maybe it will show people how pools are done in the Southwest. I _will_ say that in AZ, what I am doing is fairly representative of how pools are built. Most of the subs I've talked to say that my pool is a pretty standard pool.

Thats too bad that the sub pool is so small there in your neck of the woods. I would say that I've encountered typically 3-5 companies in each trade (15-20 trades involved with building pools in AZ). I'm not sure why this would be a geographical thing though. That really puzzles me. Maybe you aren't looking hard enough? I don't know. I will say that its a blessing to have that many. Just this morning I was looking at two electrical bids. One was $2K more than the other. After I figured out the line itemizations on both (so that I could compare apples with apples), I found out that one sub left stuff out and the other sub was beefing up his design to provide extra margin of safety. The bottom line was that they were both in the same ballpark after accounting for those differences.

BenC

The reason this is related to geography is simply climate. It's not as hot and sunny in Virginia as it is in Arizona. (For reference, here's a map of yearly average insolation for the continental U.S.: http://www.windsun.com/Solar_Basics/Solar_maps.htm#Map1 .) As a result, fewer people are willing to spend the money to install a swimming pool here as in Arizona. I'm going to estimate that about five in-ground swimming pools will be built in my county this year, including mine. In the neighboring, larger county where my builder came from, I will put that number at around 30 to 40. As you can see, the economics simply don't support a large pool industry.

I expect you would find even fewer pool builders in Alaska.

Regards,

George

Nice job on the website, good luck in the project. I think its interesting, we are in the process of getting our pool built and the order of what gets done when is different then yours. Guess there isn't one way to build a pool! Good luck!

-Gina

Website looks great! I can't wait to keep track of your progress. We are in the home stretch of construction (Tile/rock/coping today), with only deck form/pour and plastering to go! It has been an amazing process to witness. I have been pleased with my pool builder. They have scheduled the subs in a very timely fashion (without long unnecessary delays), and have provided lots of guidance and ideas along the way. They have also been forced to put up with me and my wife (PatricksMom ), so I can guarantee they are earning their $$$.

Hopefully, we'll be swimming in about a week...

PatricksDad

Ben,
Nice website. You've really done some good homework and it is very nice of you to show it all to us. looking forward to watching its progress.
ken

Ben, I must say that the level of planning and research you have obviously put into this ambitious, but marvelous, project are truly impressive. Had that been more apparent when you started this thread, I would certainly have had a different reaction. I am truly humbled.

I also think your web site is incredibly well done, and I'm looking forward to the next "installment". In fact, I think you've started something worthy of putting on the HGTV Home Improvement channel on cable. Have you thought about contacting them? I'm serious... it could mean some helpful, if not lucrative, sponsorship from local suppliers. If it were me, I'd check it out.

Best of luck, and POOL ON!

-Jay

I'd say definitely go for it, but it looks like you've already gotten started!

I'm in month 5 of what was supposed to be a 2.5 month project. My contractor has really dropped the ball. We (slowly) got to the gunnite shell, and that's when he stopped showing up. I'll be filing a formal complaint on friday, and visiting an attorney next week to explore what my legal options are. I REALLY want to go after him in court right now.... grr...

I knew next to zero about construction when we started, and I've learned a LOT from all the subs. I make sure to get to know them a bit, buy them lunch (when my GC isn't on site to do it), have cold water for them to drink, and give them access to the bathroom. It at also helps that I speak spanish (I live in SoCal, where the vast majority of laborers are hispanic). In return, they go out of their way to show me what they're doing, why they're doing it, and if it's what I want. They've also got all the dirt about GC's, and always have a list of people to recommend for any given job.

The city inspectors are an absolute wealth of information. If anything, they've been a bit *too* thorough, noting problems that have existed since the house was built 35 years ago!

I'm also an engineer (an unemployed software one at that -- how's the market in AZ? It's miserable out here), and you're absolutely right about not needing to know every detail -- just the biggies. The subs and inspectors will fill you in on everything else. Make sure you supervise and ask questions! The only part of the job my GC has done that I didn't have the background for was the layout. He did all the measuring, string lines, stakes, forms, markings, etc. that the subsequent subs all used. It's not rocket science, but it's very important to do it right.

With what I've learned, I would feel VERY secure in GC-ing my own pool next time. In fact, I may be doing just that if I can't get my GC to get his act together! If you keep your web site up to date with detailed information, any problem you run into will likely be solved by someone here in very short order.

Also remember to set some money aside for 'Plan B' -- unexpected and unforseen problems that may crop up.

Like you, I too had grandiose plans for putting up a web site. The most I could manage was taking pictures and thumbnailing them. Content takes time and effort! If you want to see what you're in for (in pictures), you can browse through these:
http://nicole.monger.net/pics/yard/pool/

Jose,

I wish more people like you would post. That was excellent. Your posting made me think of something that I'm seeing is very common. I know theres a large group of people out there who could care less about the details of their pool. Their attitude is, "just give me the finished product so that I can swim." A lot of them just hire someone to do pool maintenance as well and have a real "hands-off" approach to things.

However, I'm going to guess that at least an equal amount of people like yourself who not only care about how their pool is being built, but _want_ to spend a lot of time watching and interacting with the subs. People do it for a lot of reasons, but one is that they want to be in control of each aspect of the pool building process. They do it because they care about the quality of the finished product and want it done the way they want it. The aggravation that you expressed at your GC seems to be pretty common. The aggravation comes in because something is not being done the way you want, when you want, or how you want. It comes because they either don't show up when they say they will, or when they say the subs will, or they just plain not around when you need to ask them something.

Thats the thing about being your own GC. You don't have that aggravation because you're fully in control. Its definitely a lot of work, time, and effort, so that needs to be factored in, but for those who care about these things, GCing yourself is the way to go. So far though, everything has gone as planned. So far I have no regrets.

Just to give everyone an update, the excavators showed up this morning right at 8am to start the dig. Excavation is underway as I sit here typing. They estimate that its a 1.5 day job (its a bobcat dig, unfortunately) so they won't be out of here till Friday noon or so. I'll probably have an update on the website later Friday evening.

Just a semi-humorous note, before they started, the head excavation guy asked me what the elevation of the pool was going to be. "Uh - hmmm, I'm not sure, can you hang on?" I felt a little panic. I had no idea what he was talking about. I knew this was key because excavation sets up the foundation for everything that comes afterwards: steel, shotcrete, decking, etc. I ran inside and called Mike Bolding who was my layout guy and also is a superintendent for a bunch of pool companies in the valley. I asked him the question and he explained how the elevation is the height of the bond beam minus 2". You have to allow for a 1/4" slope per foot for drainage. Whew! That was the first crisis so far as a GC. That was something that I was not ready for. I suspect that there will be more. I asked Mike a little later, "How important would that have been if I missed that?" He said that it would have been huge. I told him I would have him out for a separate visit ($40) to check on the work that the excavators did. I want to make sure this is done right and I'm not about to let me pride get in the way of that.

He laughed. Anyways, I'll have more details about this little incident and others when I update the website later this weekend.

Ben

Hi Ben (Choi) and other;

Sorry to have to do this, but I'm locking this thread. Feel free to start a new thread, like "Building My Own Pool (In-Ground Gunite, Continued". You can include a back link, for reference to this page:
http://www.poolforum.com/dcforum/DCForumID4/533.html

Unfortunately, the forum software I'm using produces some ferociously inefficient HTML, and this page has reached 423 KB in size before this post, making it cumbersome and slow to load, not to mention something of a bandwidth pig, with 10 or 15 people reloading it 3 or 4 times per day.

Ben
http://www.poolsolutions.com/ / http://www.poolforum.com/